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Post by asmodeus on Sept 30, 2009 11:37:03 GMT -5
I will never understand how our district can collect so much in taxes from the residents and pay so little to the schools. Compare my house with a friend's house in Elk Grove Village (a suburb most would consider below Naperville in terms of affluence.) I pay nearly 13k in taxes on a house worth 475k, and D204 spends just $9200 per student on education (just about the state average, and less than even the pitiful Chicago Public Schools). My friend pays $5,600 in taxes on a house worth nearly $400k and yet his district pays $13,700 per student. $13,700!
We are being ripped off, and when people realize this (especially when the tax bills go up even more), there will be a mass exodus from D204.
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Post by justvote on Sept 30, 2009 11:53:01 GMT -5
Gatordog, I know an agent on site at Ashwood Park. Per that agent, it is dead there. I suggest you drive over there and take a look. I live right next to it. If that is your example of growth, you should look elsewhere. Have business to attend to most of today so I will respond tomorrow to the rest of your statements. Ditto for momto4. Dead NOW != Dead FOREVER There's undeveloped land in 204 that is zoned residential. Should the SD assume that this land will never be built out? I don't think so. And, as far as enrollment bubbles go, 203 seems to have been sustaining theirs for a number of years. Growth is slow, but not "dead". I know some of the builders in there and drive by there often. There are foundations in & building happening - just not at the anticipated pace.
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Post by warriorpride on Sept 30, 2009 12:26:08 GMT -5
I will never understand how our district can collect so much in taxes from the residents and pay so little to the schools. Compare my house with a friend's house in Elk Grove Village (a suburb most would consider below Naperville in terms of affluence.) I pay nearly 13k in taxes on a house worth 475k, and D204 spends just $9200 per student on education (just about the state average, and less than even the pitiful Chicago Public Schools). My friend pays $5,600 in taxes on a house worth nearly $400k and yet his district pays $13,700 per student. $13,700!We are being ripped off, and when people realize this (especially when the tax bills go up even more), there will be a mass exodus from D204. 1) I don't think many people think that they are being "ripped off". In fact, a quick comparison of Elk Grove HS and WV shows very comparable academic scores. Who's getting "ripped off"? 2) I don't know how those number are calculated ($ spent per student), but it would be interesting to see - does anyone know? I did see that Elk Grove HS is a separate school district from the ES & MS schools that feed in (anyone know why some SDs are structured that way? I know Glen Ellyn is like that, too). So, it's probably more that a large, comprehensive SD like 204 gets an economy of scale on the cost per student, with so many students. 3) Related to taxes, Elk Grove Village is "old", while the 204 area is "new". Look at how many schools have been built in the last 15 years here. We're still paying for a lot of that. I bet the Elk Grove area hasn't built a school in years (Elk Grove HS was built in '66 - WV was built in '75, NV in '97, and MV in '09). And I don't know anything about the Elk Grove area - might the SD have other sources of income (commercial/business taxes, etc.)?
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Post by gatordog on Sept 30, 2009 12:58:28 GMT -5
...... cheaper was still not cheap - $12M addition and likely a MS - ..... So your better plan was to a 600 seat addition to NV for $12M? And no boundary changes. If you look at the future enrollment numbers, this does not work. This doesnt meet anybody's criteria. The major missing piece of the puzzle not consider by the advocates of this idea is that fact that future enrollments coming through the lower grade levels is actually in the old WV area. I added up my enrollment numbers assuming the original six MSs feeding them into their two HSs. The 2012-13 school year is adding up the 8-7-6 enrollment from 2008/9 for each feeder MS. To not mess with the ES split....I took the 6th grade enrollment and doubled it to get a 4 yr enrollment. The remainder is looking at the actual grade enrollments for each ES and feeding them foward into either WV or NV per old boundaries. Just as done on the first post of this thread. Finally, the 2021-22 makes the same assumption for that yr as mentioned in this first post. Here is what the enrollments would have been: sch yr 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 2019-20 2020-21 2021-22
| WV 4257
4552 4523 4496
4504
| NV 4908
4486 4300 4003
3624
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Adding on to NV would have mistakenly addressed a very short term need. And would have left WV continously at >4200 students. I guess if this had been done by some shortsighted thinking....there would have been a nearly annual shifting of boundaries to slowly move students away for WV over time, and down into NV. That is the price you pay if you want to "perfectly juggle" 8400 or more HS students into two 4200 seat building. By the way, maybe the boundary shifting wouldnt have been literally annual, but "only" every couple or three years. Boy, that would have been loads of fun and really productive for the district to revisit again and again and again. Since we are revisting history , my historical assessment is adding 600 seats on to NV would not have worked well at all.
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doc
Frosh
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Post by doc on Sept 30, 2009 13:12:56 GMT -5
...... cheaper was still not cheap - $12M addition and likely a MS - ..... So your better plan was to a 600 seat addition to NV for $12M? And no boundary changes. If you look at the future enrollment numbers, this does not work. This doesnt meet anybody's criteria. The major missing piece of the puzzle not consider by the advocates of this idea is that fact that future enrollments coming through the lower grade levels is actually in the old WV area. I added up my enrollment numbers assuming the original six MSs feeding them into their two HSs. The 2012-13 school year is adding up the 8-7-6 enrollment from 2008/9 for each feeder MS. To not mess with the ES split....I took the 6th grade enrollment and doubled it to get a 4 yr enrollment. The remainder is looking at the actual grade enrollments for each ES and feeding them foward into either WV or NV per old boundaries. Just as done on the first post of this thread. Finally, the 2021-22 makes the same assumption for that yr as mentioned in this first post. Here is what the enrollments would have been: sch yr 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 2019-20 2020-21 2021-22
| WV 4257
4552 4523 4496
4504
| NV 4908
4486 4300 4003
3624
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Adding on to NV would have mistakenly addressed a very short term need. And would have left WV continously at >4200 students. I guess if this had been done by some shortsighted thinking....there would have been a nearly annual shifting of boundaries to slowly move students away for WV over time, and down into NV. That is the price you pay if you want to "perfectly juggle" 8400 or more HS students into two 4200 seat building. By the way, maybe the boundary shifting wouldnt have been literally annual, but "only" every couple or three years. Boy, that would have been loads of fun and really productive for the district to revisit again and again and again. Since we are revisting history , my historical assessment is adding 600 seats on to NV would not have worked well at all. and you account for Frontier Campus where ? You accont for the on line learning coming where ? shortsighted thinking was refinancing debt over and over again - like paying credit cards with credit cards- so that we are now 20 years out on some debt that should be retired. That would be short sighted planning And even at the far end of thinking- we needed 3000 seats why ? You can calculate to the cows come home but even the SD tells you 8900 is it - period. finite. If we wanted to make sure we spent the money we got by duping people with 10,400 and split shifts- build the 1500 student high school every near there seems to want and save $Millions - and not drag people from all over the district to get there - of course I read now you feel the boundaries are just hunky dory -
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doc
Frosh
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Post by doc on Sept 30, 2009 13:15:43 GMT -5
aside from a specialty HS in LA- the most expensive HS in the country - not the most expensive route ? If you referring to BB- if they did not expedite BB the costs would have virtually been similar. Number of students in a class vs # of students in a classROOM are totally different. St Francis is half our size and has outstanding scores also- so I fail to see your point there. New trier one of the best HS's in the nation and has 5000 students- so that argument doesn't work for me. we would not have been going without - an addition to NV and a new MS ( keeping the freshman centers) was NOT going without. The kids weren't learning in the playground.. My oldest was at WVHS when it was more crowded than last year- her and her friends had no issues at all..same goes for Watts when there. So you went a route of not spending the most money you could with the car- good for you sounds like the right move to me- I wish our SD had done the same thing - they bought the Rolls instead. This rate of appeasement to something that some believe is nice - cannot continue as we are in debt up to our ears for the next 20 years. It would be nice to have A/C in the ES's also- but NOW we cannot afford that - we spent it to have the same size classrooms 3 miles north. $88M for remodeling Naperville Central, without adding any significant capacity seems rather "expensive", too, but that ref passed, as well. And, MV is the most expensive until the next 3000-student, comprehensive HS is built in the next year or two, in an area with land costs that are comparable to 204's. And this would explain Plainfield East high school which opened in 2008 at a cost less than 1/2 of what we spent.... far closer to the center of 204's population, and not far from some properties we looked at - how ? And please don't tell me AME was a better piece of property. Also we needed a 3000 student high school again why ? We knew the attendance numbers no way supported 3000 seats by anyone's calculations. Why not build the 1500-2000 seat HS everyone near there wanted for themselves - and could have had to themselves ? those savings would have covered the upcoming deficits for more than a few years
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Post by asmodeus on Sept 30, 2009 13:36:28 GMT -5
I can't imagine Elk Grove having any more of a commercial tax base than we do. Where is all the tax revenue from Fox Valley mall, Costco, the entire Route 59 corridor from Diehl to 127th or whatever? You'd think we would be doing very well with respect to commercial tax revenue.
As I said, my taxes, as well as many of my neighbors, are in the range of $13k per year for homes that are valued at around $500k (in a very suspect market). Ten years ago my taxes were less than $8k. Is it possible that in another five years my taxes will be $20k? It almost seems inevitable, and I just don't see a lot of people being able or willing to stomach that.
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Post by warriorpride on Sept 30, 2009 14:04:46 GMT -5
...Also we needed a 3000 student high school again why ? We knew the attendance numbers no way supported 3000 seats by anyone's calculations. Why not build the 1500-2000 seat HS everyone near there wanted for themselves - and could have had to themselves ? those savings would have covered the upcoming deficits for more than a few years ok - I'm not sure why we're debating whether or not MV should have been built - the broken-record, dead-horse routine isn't "educating" anyone, or changing anyone's minds at this point. I also don't know why people keep throwing around numbers that don't match the most recent enrollment numbers - it kinda drops your credibility. We have almost 9,300 in the pipeline WITH NO GROWTH.
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doc
Frosh
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Post by doc on Sept 30, 2009 14:20:30 GMT -5
...Also we needed a 3000 student high school again why ? We knew the attendance numbers no way supported 3000 seats by anyone's calculations. Why not build the 1500-2000 seat HS everyone near there wanted for themselves - and could have had to themselves ? those savings would have covered the upcoming deficits for more than a few years ok - I'm not sure why we're debating whether or not MV should have been built - the broken-record, dead-horse routine isn't "educating" anyone, or changing anyone's minds at this point. I also don't know why people keep throwing around numbers that don't match the most recent enrollment numbers - it kinda drops your credibility. We have almost 9,300 in the pipeline WITH NO GROWTH. You might want to have your facts in order before you resort to personal comments -- it is not my credibility WP - it's 204's 'official' numbers - NOT mine. March financial report. Of course if you know better then them what the real number is- I suggest you contact them and have them update their reported figures\ and projections. so if you think these are my numbers- then maybe I am educating someone. If you'd like a copy it is public record... if you don't like 8900 send your calcs to them. Until then I will continue to use their numbers. There's always more in the 'pipeline' than end up in our HS...unless you're telling me our SB and SD doesn't know what they're doing with their projections
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doc
Frosh
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Post by doc on Sept 30, 2009 14:21:28 GMT -5
I can't imagine Elk Grove having any more of a commercial tax base than we do. Where is all the tax revenue from Fox Valley mall, Costco, the entire Route 59 corridor from Diehl to 127th or whatever? You'd think we would be doing very well with respect to commercial tax revenue. As I said, my taxes, as well as many of my neighbors, are in the range of $13k per year for homes that are valued at around $500k (in a very suspect market). Ten years ago my taxes were less than $8k. Is it possible that in another five years my taxes will be $20k? It almost seems inevitable, and I just don't see a lot of people being able or willing to stomach that. you'll just love the 2014 increase..it's when the piper comes calling
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Post by warriorpride on Sept 30, 2009 16:50:55 GMT -5
ok - I'm not sure why we're debating whether or not MV should have been built - the broken-record, dead-horse routine isn't "educating" anyone, or changing anyone's minds at this point. I also don't know why people keep throwing around numbers that don't match the most recent enrollment numbers - it kinda drops your credibility. We have almost 9,300 in the pipeline WITH NO GROWTH. You might want to have your facts in order before you resort to personal comments -- it is not my credibility WP - it's 204's 'official' numbers - NOT mine. March financial report. Of course if you know better then them what the real number is- I suggest you contact them and have them update their reported figures\ and projections. so if you think these are my numbers- then maybe I am educating someone. If you'd like a copy it is public record... if you don't like 8900 send your calcs to them. Until then I will continue to use their numbers. There's always more in the 'pipeline' than end up in our HS...unless you're telling me our SB and SD doesn't know what they're doing with their projections It's not a matter of what I "like". I'm just looking at the raw numbers from 06, 07, and 09 (can't find 08 handy). Year to year, across all grades and I don't see a significant drop, even into HS.
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Post by justvote on Sept 30, 2009 20:26:44 GMT -5
The 9263 figure for grades 4 through 7 came directly from Kathy Birkett at a recent IPPC meeting. This is "official" enough for me as I do not believe she would lie about something like that.
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Post by chicoryowl on Sept 30, 2009 20:52:08 GMT -5
I sure as hell hope so. Then there will be less of the people who feel the need to complain about anything and everything with this district (both past and present). Also, maybe the hyperbole will subside as well.
You call it an "exodus." I doubt it will happen but if it does, I'll call it "addition by subtraction."
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Arwen
Master Member
Posts: 933
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Post by Arwen on Sept 30, 2009 21:22:26 GMT -5
I sure as hell hope so. Then there will be less of the people who feel the need to complain about anything and everything with this district (both past and present). Also, maybe the hyperbole will subside as well. You call it an "exodus." I doubt it will happen but if it does, I'll call it "addition by subtraction." A-fricking-MEN Chicory. Personally, if I wanted to read this neverending b.s. on stuff that is over with, done, totally not reversible, I'd be reading on blue and not green.
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Post by warriorpride on Sept 30, 2009 21:36:51 GMT -5
The 9263 figure for grades 4 through 7 came directly from Kathy Birkett at a recent IPPC meeting. This is "official" enough for me as I do not believe she would lie about something like that. Right, but based on the trends of recent years, there may be around 100 less by the time they get to HS. But, that's still over 9100 AND that's still with no growth.
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