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Post by gatordog on May 11, 2011 12:45:57 GMT -5
I was thinking about HS size, and was wondering: how common are HS's with >4000 students?
Its easy to find these entrollments in IL from the ihsa.org athletic website.
Lets start there, as we have discussed in the past. We know in IL there are some, but not very many: Besides NV, there is New Trier, Waukegan, Warren HS (in Gurnee) , Stevenson, and Morton (in Berwyn-Cicero) and Lane Tech.
Lane and Wauken are different makeups than the other schools, with >50% low income. Edit: also Morton. This will be a distinction made later for other states. Some times its given as % of free lunch and reduced lunch.
so for IL, its 6, with I'll say 3 being comparable.
Now look at some others states. (I found one state's athletic assoc.--Kentucky, KHSAA--- with links to all 50 states comparable organization, that was handy)
Its not crystal-clear looking at these variety of websites, but here is what I could find for schools with >4000 enrollements. (others can correct me, or add other states if they have other info).
TX=5 (Allen 10th-12gr, Galena Park, Alief Elsik, Alief Hastings, Dallas Skyline). The last 4 of these have >50% low income. (I was confused by Plano E and Plano W HS...these are given as 10-12, or maybe 11-12? with multiplier entrollments, so i left it off the list due to my confusion....edit: Plano figure out in later post)
NY state= 1 (Brentwood, southern L.I. , didnt chk low inc. 40% low inc, 10% white) NJ- 0 OH-0 MA-1 (Brockton) 70% low inc IN=2 (Ben Davis, Carmel), one is >50% low inc
I checked these state athletic sites, but could not easily find the enrollment info: CA, PA, MI, & WI. So, I wont include them here in this hunt for HSs>4000. As an aside, I was able to look up by school district some specific areas: Los Angeles- 7 , all >80% low income Philadelphia - 0
Here is a a summary: Number of HS's across the nation with >4000 students, and <50% low income students, by state (that I could find)
IL = 3 TX = 1 (and also Plano?) NJ=0 OH=0 MA=0 IN=1 NY state= 0 The conclusion is, very large HS's, >4000 are very rare.
edit: NY association that I searched, specifically says its for the state. Apparently the city is exclude, like Illinois does it. That makes for very good comparision.
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Post by southsidesignmaker on May 11, 2011 13:03:40 GMT -5
4000 plus enrollment high schools are rare for a reason. I wonder how many districts use Freshman centers and other buildings as stop gap measures.
I suspect much of this line of research would be mute if the third high school was constructed at the location promised. Probably a bit of whining with tax rates increasing but over all the subject would be dropped.
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Post by steckdad on May 11, 2011 19:50:47 GMT -5
4000 plus enrollment high schools are rare for a reason. I wonder how many districts use Freshman centers and other buildings as stop gap measures. I suspect much of this line of research would be mute if the third high school was constructed at the location promised. Probably a bit of whining with tax rates increasing but over all the subject would be dropped. agreed...
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Post by gatordog on May 11, 2011 22:16:59 GMT -5
4000 plus enrollment high schools are rare for a reason. I wonder how many districts use Freshman centers and other buildings as stop gap measures. ...... Yes there are reasons. One thing to be there as a temporary measure, and still another to design it that way long term as permanent plan. A big part of my votes (both times) for the 3rd HS was the concern that our schools, even with current no growth enrollements all the way down to the youngest students, would have just been too big. That thinking is not only in line with all our neighboring communities, but the entire nation. I still have to admit, I am surprised with the results I have found so far. I thought maybe Texas would have some very big schools. Heck, I thought maybe just to field a good football team, they would like to have "mega-schools"! (I am only half joking with that comment ). Not even mighty Odessa High and Permian High of Friday Night Lights fame.
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Post by asmodeus on May 12, 2011 7:37:33 GMT -5
Doesn't seem to have hurt Stevenson or New Trier, so why should we assume it would be bad for NV?
Size of the school means very, very little. Size of the classes means much more.
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Post by gatordog on May 12, 2011 12:30:04 GMT -5
Doesn't seem to have hurt Stevenson or New Trier, so why should we assume it would be bad for NV? First, I like this question, asmo.....because you are asking about NV only. (Obviously a 4200+ enrollment WV is off the table and not worth considering anymore.) I am not saying its necessarily bad for NV. Highly unusually, yes. But not necessarily bad. We must recognize that Stev and NT HSs are are extreme, very special, and very unique schools in terms of their demographic make ups--they dont have much diversity. (Example: low inc student make of 4% and 3% respectively) I believe a highly homogeneous student body likely has a better chance of being successfully organized into a very large entity. Then why are 4000+ HS's so exceeding rare? Certainly there are metropolitan areas not too unlike where we live in other states. If it truly means very little, there would be more extremely large schools out there.
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Post by gatordog on May 14, 2011 10:34:11 GMT -5
further update on the list, the Long Island school doesnt meet the similar-community criteria. It has 11% white enrollment, 40%-50% low income.
Let me revise my summary of states (that I have investigated):
Number of HS's across the nation with >4000 students, and <50% low income students, by state
IL = 3 edit: revised IL comparable count TX = 1 (and also Plano? not Plano) NJ=0 OH=0 MA=0 IN=1 NY state= 0 VA=0 CT=0 KY=0 MO=0 FL= 1 CA= 7 (all with low inc 21-47%. & two just barely over enroll #)
edit: add Calif, an important one to look at.
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Post by gatordog on May 14, 2011 11:06:24 GMT -5
As a side comment, CT has no HS>3000 enrollment. Nor does Missouri (DeSmet in St Louis is 2979). Nor KY. Virginia has one (Westfield, at 3171).
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Post by gatordog on May 14, 2011 15:02:33 GMT -5
I figured out the Plano, Texas school district HS organization. Very unusual, it is. They have six "High Schools" for 9-10 and three "Senior High Schools" 11-12. The 9-10 schools all have separate school names, colors, mascots (and administration).
As a district, its makeup is 24% low income, and 49% white.
So these Plano schools are not at all organizationally comparable to the 4000+ enrollment schools here we are discussinng. I will remove them from the above summary lists.
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Post by gatordog on May 15, 2011 12:59:20 GMT -5
For Florida, I looked at the2010 FHSAA member school student population report. There are two >4000 HSs here. One is John A. Ferguson in Miami. 4295 enroll. Its an urban school with 8% white, 87% hispanic. 38% low income. Its a magnet school. So its not meeting the comparable criteria. The other is Cypress Bay in, Weston with 4060 students, 15% low income. 52% white, 35% hispanic. This is comparable, so i added it to above list. edit: Cypress Bay is one of ~30 High Schools in Broward Co. school district. enroll info on Broward Schools www.broward.k12.fl.us/schoolboundaries/counts/1011/Tenth%20Day%20Count1011.pdf
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Post by gatordog on May 18, 2011 12:05:32 GMT -5
I did the search for California. I used high-schools.com/california.html Again, inner city schools with high poverty excluded. Hear are the schools >4000 and <50% low income. All (but one) are in the Greater Los Angeles area. Santiago HS, Corona 4141, 21% low inc. AB Miller HS, Fontana 4320, 39% low inc Fontana HS, Fontana 4297, 39% low inc Lakewood HS, Lakewood 4337, 47% low inc Wilson HS, Long Beach 4630, 47% low inc James Logan HS, Union City 4003 24% low inc El Camino Real HS, Woodland Hills 4017, 26% low inc Its a stretch to call these directly comparable (IMHO), but I will include these 7 in the count of nation-wide >4000 suburban style HSs..
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Post by gatordog on May 18, 2011 17:17:09 GMT -5
further update on the list, ....... Number of HS's across the nation with >4000 students, and < 50% low income students, by state IL = 3 edit: revised IL comparable count TX = 1 (and also Plano? not Plano) NJ=0 OH=0 MA=0 IN=1 NY state= 0 VA=0 CT=0 KY=0 MO=0 FL= 1 CA= 7 (all with low inc 21-47%. & two just barely over enroll #) . On note, on Plano TX...as discussed above, very unique arragement, but I think it boils down to schools with >1000 per graduating class. So lets add them back on to the list: Plano HS (9% free lunch) and Plano East HS (22% free lunch). edit: ok I am waffling again on Plano! bottom line, they graduate approx 1300+1200+950 ~ 3500 students per class. Yet they have nine HS to achieve this, three senior HSs and six high schools, all with unique names and admin. This in not comparable to what 204 might have done. Its just not. So once and for all, conclude this is not comparable. Most importantly, I am revising the "comparable" criteria, concerning low income. I think its fair to say that the <50% low income student is including some districts that are significantly different than ours. I think the avg US poverty rate is 14%. For our SD, its 10%. Lets make the criteria 25%, which still is quite broad in my opinion. Number of HS's across the nation with >4000 students, and <25% low income students, by stateIL = 3 TX = 1 3 NJ=0 OH=0 MA=0 IN=1 NY state= 0 VA=0 CT=0 KY=0 MO=0 FL= 1 CA= 2
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Post by gatordog on May 19, 2011 12:26:06 GMT -5
I looked at a bunch more states, using high-schools.com. Got it by googling "x public high schools ranked by enrollment'. Anybody is free to double check this work.
I looked at AZ, PA, MI, TN, HI, OK, GA, OR, WA, NC, LA, CO, WI, MN....no 4000 student high schools.
The one i did see, in PA (Reading HS) , was judged not comparable, 62% low income, 18% white
Actually, its amazing to me how rare even 3000 seat HSs are for these (and other) states. Example, biggest in AZ=3442, WA=2997, NC=2992, MN=3267, TN=2706. but that is a different topic.
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Post by gatordog on May 19, 2011 12:35:23 GMT -5
I learned something interesting about the Humble TX Independent SD. I was double checking the high-school.com vs. the athletic enrollments, which I easily found for Texas. The former source listed Kingwood HS = 4114 enrollment, a Humble HS= 4536. I thought maybe I had missed one. No, I didnt. The athletic site was up to date (as I expected). To avoid very large HSs, this district opened new HSs. Discussed in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Independent_School_DistrictWhat were two 4000 + HSs are now five HSs est 1965 Humble Wildcats 1651 enroll est 1979 Kingwood Mustangs 2733 enroll est 2006 Atascotia Eagles 3163 entroll est 2007 Kingwood Park Panthers 1644 enroll est 2009 Summer Creek Bulldogs 1385 (not full yet?....no football team yet).
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Post by gatordog on May 19, 2011 12:39:17 GMT -5
Final Summary
Number of HS's across the nation with >4000 students, and <25% low income students, by state
IL = 3 CA = 2 TX = 1 FL = 1 IN = 1
none in NJ, OH, MA, NY state, VA, CT, KY, MO, AZ, PA, MI, TN, HI, OK, GA, OR, WA, NC, LA, CO, WI, MN
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