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Post by gatordog on Nov 16, 2009 13:15:58 GMT -5
Inspired by the recent Beacon News article by poster slt (reference In the News thread "WVHS is awesome), I was looking at the WVHS profile at wvhs.ipsd.org/uploads/Curriculum/WVprofile0910_hires_Oct19.pdfI was looking at the NV school profile, as well. nvhs.ipsd.org/uploads/NeuquaValley_09Profile_singlepages_small.pdfI think there is good info here to make comparisons of the two schools concerning their very top students. Just for the counting statistics, as opposed to the individual or percentage based ones, I scaled the NV numbers to be based on an equivalent WV enrollment. This adjusts for fact that NV has been about 20% bigger school recently. (I scaled the NV counts by multiplying by 0.82, based on Fall 2008 enrollment ratio) For Advance Placement classes, WV data is spring of '08, while NV is Spring of '09. (I wish I had WV '09 data...EDIT: I think its probably a typo on the WV pdf. I think this is WV Spring 2009 numbers also. I say this because the 0809 school profile gives different AP data for Spring of 08, which makes more sense). The success percentage means score >=3. AP results students exams success | WV 573 1170 82% | NV scaled 775 1530 84% | NV act 945 1870 84% |
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Average number per year for National Merit recognition. WV data is for five yrs, NV for four. Natl Merit commended semi-final finalist | WV 19 5 5 | NV scaled 23 10 10 | NV act 28 12 12 |
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Class rank relationship to GPA rank GPA top 10% top 25% | WV 3.90 3.51
| NV 4.04 3.71 |
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SAT avg results over last four years SAT read write math % take | WV 604 612 638 10% | NV 604 602 632 16% |
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Post by asmodeus on Nov 16, 2009 15:16:27 GMT -5
Interesting that someone with straight As (but no advanced classes) would not be in the top 10% of NV.
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Post by gatordog on Nov 17, 2009 13:13:25 GMT -5
Interesting that someone with straight As (but no advanced classes) would not be in the top 10% of NV. I agree. This kind of occurance has lead several schools to stop reporting class rank. we had this message board discussion a year or so ago.
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Post by gatordog on Nov 17, 2009 13:28:07 GMT -5
Comparing our two HS's, it is quite interesting to me that the top students at either school, as judged by SAT and AP testing performance, are virtually identical.
Also, proportionately speaking, I see more NV students take AP courses. And almost certainly, you could say the same about more take honors courses (which likely explains the GPA to class standing rank difference....more students with the weighted grades at NV).
But again, I think the main thing to remark upon is that for those in the upper tier classes (AP, honors), the results of these programs (by the two measures shown here) are the same.
At both schools there certainly are large numbers of students who take....and meet... the challenge of these higher level courses. Good for them. And good for our district to provide them these opportunities, at all of HSs.
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Post by gatordog on Nov 17, 2009 13:46:48 GMT -5
Not easy to find School Profile Results for most schools. Per my looking, only the 203 schools and the Hindales schools Central and South put these profiles easy to find, and with the same level of detail that 204 does. Also, found some SAT info on St Ch North (but not East). And Some AP info on couple other UE conf schools. Here are some: AP results students exams success | NN 559 885 89% | NC 556 n/a 88% | HC 843 1597 89% | HS 446 929 79% | Bart 256 460 53% | Lk Pk 342 630 80% |
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Last year National Merit recognition. Natl Merit commended semi-final finalist | NN n/a n/a n/a | NC 34 n/a 22 | HC 24 15 15 | HS 6 6 6 |
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SAT avg results one year SAT read write math % take | NN 631 621 684 15% | NC 642 634 677 ~13% | HC 589 587 611 ~50% | HS 586 591 631 13% | StCN 569 V 569 V 592 11% |
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Post by asmodeus on Nov 17, 2009 15:25:24 GMT -5
I look at those numbers and wonder why NN and NC's SAT scores are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than both WV and NV. And these are comparisons of the best (top 10-15%) of the students.
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Post by gatordog on Nov 17, 2009 16:19:53 GMT -5
....... NN and NC's SAT scores are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than both WV and NV. .... lets compare how significant the difference is. Using this found on the web www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/SATPercentileRanks.pdfThe 204 HS's SAT Reading is about in the 80 percentile, while 203's is in 86. 204's HS's Math lands in the 86 percentile, while 203's is in 93. EDIT: The Hindale scores are approx the same as 204. St Ch N Math score is about 77 percentile
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Post by asmodeus on Nov 18, 2009 9:38:47 GMT -5
Those are huge differences, and disturbing to me.
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doc
Frosh
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Post by doc on Nov 18, 2009 11:04:23 GMT -5
Interesting that someone with straight As (but no advanced classes) would not be in the top 10% of NV. I agree. This kind of occurance has lead several schools to stop reporting class rank. we had this message board discussion a year or so ago. The idea of weighted classes is the root of the issue..the fact someone can get sraight A's and not be in top 10% is crazy. Is a B in an honors class really worth 4.0 ? Always ? - of course not. An A worth 5.0 ? Also class rank at magnet schools, and other top acheving schools becomes meaningless compared to an average school. Class rank at a top general admin public school like 203 or 204 compared to a low perfomring school also meaningless. Colleges need to look at the individual and the whole package.. I can tell you Benet does not rank- not do schools like Ignatius etc.( would have to check on Whitney Young etc) - What would be the point? You could have someone in the bottom 25% that might easily be in the top 25% elsewhere - although I am not a huge fan of just counting ACT and SAT, there has to be some 'common' ground to measure. Curriculums are different in different HS's and SD's- so GPA's become apples and oranges IMHO.
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doc
Frosh
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Post by doc on Nov 18, 2009 11:15:02 GMT -5
Not easy to find School Profile Results for most schools. Per my looking, only the 203 schools and the Hindales schools Central and South put these profiles easy to find, and with the same level of detail that 204 does. Also, found some SAT info on St Ch North (but not East). And Some AP info on couple other UE conf schools. Here are some: AP results students exams success | NN 559 885 89% | NC 556 n/a 88% | HC 843 1597 89% | HS 446 929 79% | Bart 256 460 53% | Lk Pk 342 630 80% |
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Last year National Merit recognition. Natl Merit commended semi-final finalist | NN n/a n/a n/a | NC 34 n/a 22 | HC 24 15 15 | HS 6 6 6 |
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SAT avg results one year SAT read write math % take | NN 631 621 684 15% | NC 642 634 677 ~13% | HC 589 587 611 ~50% | HS 586 591 631 13% | StCN 569 V 569 V 592 11% |
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the concern I've always had is when stats try and compare only a top % of the students. What always concerned me was the low % of students that take the SAT when compared to the % of students that are college bound. Hinsdale Central the best of the bunch here at appr. 50% - why all others hovering just above 10% ? And why are they 4-5 tims that amount? When their scores come back as a school they are measuring 50% of the students vs 12% -- hardly an equal comparison. If these were HS's were in an area where only 10-20% of the students went to college I could understand it - but not here. If one is trying to see the strength of a curriculum for college preparedness measuring the top 10% doesn't do it. Any thoughts on why participation so low ? (yes I realize my situation is different- to a point - but not taking the SAT is not an option )
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Post by gatordog on Nov 18, 2009 12:29:25 GMT -5
the concern I've always had is when stats try and compare only a top % of the students. What always concerned me was the low % of students that take the SAT when compared to the % of students that are college bound. .......why all others hovering just above 10% ? ..... Any thoughts on why participation so low ? I am pretty sure I know why. Per the guidance counselors, midwest colleges (for whatever reason) tend to use the ACT as there college entrance standard. However east and west coast schools (including those very elite colleges on each coast) use the SAT. Also, another reason to take the SAT is to try for a National Merit Scholarship. So, my understanding is, the students at public HS's who choose to take the SAT typically are trying for National Merit recognition and/or considering an east or west coast or ultra-elite school. So it tends to be the very upper tier students who take the SAT. Also, it seems likely that there is a family financial status effect too....those considering far away private or out-of-state schools . EDIT: parents who have gone through the college-entrance thing can probably add more or explain better.
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Post by momto4 on Nov 18, 2009 13:31:37 GMT -5
FWIW, my oldest took the SAT basically for the fun of it, just to see what she would get. My current senior is ranked fairly high in her class and has not taken the SAT and has no reason to take it.
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doc
Frosh
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Post by doc on Nov 19, 2009 16:50:59 GMT -5
the concern I've always had is when stats try and compare only a top % of the students. What always concerned me was the low % of students that take the SAT when compared to the % of students that are college bound. .......why all others hovering just above 10% ? ..... Any thoughts on why participation so low ? I am pretty sure I know why. Per the guidance counselors, midwest colleges (for whatever reason) tend to use the ACT as there college entrance standard. However east and west coast schools (including those very elite colleges on each coast) use the SAT. Also, another reason to take the SAT is to try for a National Merit Scholarship. So, my understanding is, the students at public HS's who choose to take the SAT typically are trying for National Merit recognition and/or considering an east or west coast or ultra-elite school. So it tends to be the very upper tier students who take the SAT. Also, it seems likely that there is a family financial status effect too....those considering far away private or out-of-state schools . EDIT: parents who have gone through the college-entrance thing can probably add more or explain better. " Also, another reason to take the SAT is to try for a National Merit Scholarship." that alone is reason enough for me - when I asked my youngest daughter ( who took the SAT in I believe 6th and 8th (? not 100% sure it wasn't 7th)- like someothers in the district - she said kids were basically discouraged from taking it although she does not remember being told why other than you don't need it -- which while maybe true based on where one may attend - would have been nice to have something go home explaining that. I don't remember anything - does anyone here ? At least those in PA and advanced track who have proven scores could benefit I believe from taking it. Now asking my oldest ( who was a PA student in ES but asked out in MS) - she was encouraged to take it while in middle school - that was 10 years earlier @ Hill. And GD - those considering far away/out of state or private schools doesn't always equate 1:1 with financial status.... add a few partial grants and some great test scores and those schools become much more affordable or as so as U of I -- having been thru this once- it was amazing what came into the same ranges if a student was accepted -- ( yes there were a few that were pipe dreams financially regardless- but we have them here too - NU - U of Chic )
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doc
Frosh
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Post by doc on Nov 19, 2009 16:55:07 GMT -5
FWIW, my oldest took the SAT basically for the fun of it, just to see what she would get. My current senior is ranked fairly high in her class and has not taken the SAT and has no reason to take it. just curious as to why you would view it as virtually worthless ? SAT's - even in M/W schools can also be tie breakers on admittance... my oldest's fairly high SAT score also helped some schools move her up the athletic scholarship lists showing a high percentage chance of college achievement. Almost every school we dealt with in that regard ( over 40 of them) looked at both tests.
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Post by momto4 on Nov 19, 2009 17:19:57 GMT -5
FWIW, my oldest took the SAT basically for the fun of it, just to see what she would get. My current senior is ranked fairly high in her class and has not taken the SAT and has no reason to take it. just curious as to why you would view it as virtually worthless ? SAT's - even in M/W schools can also be tie breakers on admittance... my oldest's fairly high SAT score also helped some schools move her up the athletic scholarship lists showing a high percentage chance of college achievement. Almost every school we dealt with in that regard ( over 40 of them) looked at both tests. My older three all took the SAT in middle school, but again it was mostly for the fun of it. I thought the PSAT was what qualified students for National Merit, so I guess we missed the boat on this one with child #2 if that's not the case. For the schools my older kids have looked at there is no way that SAT scores would make a difference on whether or not they got admitted. I would be really surprised if it made a bit of difference on the scholarship offerings, either. We are not looking at such a big pool of schools as you, with this one we checked out 7. I think they would take SAT into consideration if the student didn't have an ACT, or maybe they would require the ACT? I'm not sure since it didn't matter to us. I don't know of a single benefit to be had for any of my kids by taking the SAT but if there turns out there would be, I'm sure the younger kids will decide to take it.
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