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Post by asmodeus on May 20, 2008 10:04:16 GMT -5
I am NOT disparaging WV, just pointing out that a list of schools that would include WV but not NV, NN, or NC is suspect.
This is exactly right, IMHO.
For all the love we give Naperville schools, I believe the background of the student and his upbringing largely determine the results and the perceived quality of the school. I think the fact that most kids in 203 and 204 are from two-parent, above average socioeconomic homes means more than the quality of the teachers (and the cosmetics of the school buildings), despite what the teacher unions would have you believe.
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Post by asmodeus on May 20, 2008 10:22:13 GMT -5
This is the primary force driving those who prefer NV to WV. You can talk about identical curricula and "opportunities" all day, but most people know there is still a difference. Look at the Chicago Public Schools as an example. In theory, they should all have the same academic offerings and the same money spent per child. Yet some schools are mired in gang problems, guns, and a host of other distractions that negatively affect the learning experience. Certainly WV is nowhere near this situation. Yet I know people who work at Still MS who claim that the level of disrespect shown (by students) to teachers and aides is becoming increasingly alarming, and there isn't much being done about it. At some point, this apathy will make its way to the HS level as the kids move to higher grades.
Many of us don't want our kids subjected to this type of atmosphere. Diversity is one thing; disobedience and punk behavior is another.
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Post by gatormom on May 20, 2008 10:28:27 GMT -5
This is the primary force driving those who prefer NV to WV. You can talk about identical curricula and "opportunities" all day, but most people know there is still a difference. Look at the Chicago Public Schools as an example. In theory, they should all have the same academic offerings and the same money spent per child. Yet some schools are mired in gang problems, guns, and a host of other distractions that negatively affect the learning experience. Certainly WV is nowhere near this situation. Yet I know people who work at Still MS who claim that the level of disrespect shown (by students) to teachers and aides is becoming increasingly alarming, and there isn't much being done about it. At some point, this apathy will make its way to the HS level as the kids move to higher grades. Many of us don't want our kids subjected to this type of atmosphere. Diversity is one thing; disobedience and punk behavior is another. Diversity is okay as long as you get to pick it huh? My daughter attends Still MS. Sorry, not an issue. She is getting the same outstanding education offered elsewhere. I guess you have to live it to get it.
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Post by forthekids on May 20, 2008 10:56:59 GMT -5
This is the primary force driving those who prefer NV to WV. You can talk about identical curricula and "opportunities" all day, but most people know there is still a difference. Look at the Chicago Public Schools as an example. In theory, they should all have the same academic offerings and the same money spent per child. Yet some schools are mired in gang problems, guns, and a host of other distractions that negatively affect the learning experience. Certainly WV is nowhere near this situation. Yet I know people who work at Still MS who claim that the level of disrespect shown (by students) to teachers and aides is becoming increasingly alarming, and there isn't much being done about it. At some point, this apathy will make its way to the HS level as the kids move to higher grades. Many of us don't want our kids subjected to this type of atmosphere. Diversity is one thing; disobedience and punk behavior is another. I have not spent much time at NV but I will say that in my experience and those of my children, that WV does have a respectful atmosphere and the majority of the students they know want to and do excel academically and usually while participating in multiple extra-curriculars as well. The difference between NV and WV's overall socioeconomic background is small compared to the difference between either of them and many other schools. It is just enough to give the school some more diversity and give all of the students more chance to get to know some people who may not be just like them. I know several kids who are Illinois State Scholars and/or Indian Prairie Scholars who come from the very neighborhoods that some do not want their children to attend school with. Back on topic - I think it's great that WV is being recognized, by one measure, for being among the top high schools in the nation. I hate to burst the bubble of those with kids not yet in high school -- NV has just as many problems with sex, drugs and alcohol use as does WV! How much money your family has is not an indicator of attitude and bad behavior.
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Post by gatordog on May 20, 2008 11:21:08 GMT -5
This is the primary force driving those who prefer NV to WV. You can talk about identical curricula and "opportunities" all day, but most people know there is still a difference. Look at the Chicago Public Schools as an example. In theory, they should all have the same academic offerings and the same money spent per child. Yet some schools are mired in gang problems, guns, and a host of other distractions that negatively affect the learning experience. Certainly WV is nowhere near this situation. Yet I know people who work at Still MS who claim that the level of disrespect shown (by students) to teachers and aides is becoming increasingly alarming, and there isn't much being done about it. At some point, this apathy will make its way to the HS level as the kids move to higher grades. Many of us don't want our kids subjected to this type of atmosphere. Diversity is one thing; disobedience and punk behavior is another. asmodeus, thanks for expressing this. This is a good post, because I believe this does catch the emotionalism that some are feeling about being re-boundaried to WV. In my mind, however, these issues that you point out are emotional issues only, not founded in reality. You say, "WV is nowhere near the situation of CPS". Of course not! But then you say people are making a link between WV and gangs, guns, disobedience and punk behavior. As if it were in fact a CPS! So much to the point that they dont want their kids subjected to this (as if its ok to subject other 204 kids to this alleged activity??). Emotionally, people (with no direct experience at all of WV) need to stop thinking such "catastrophizing" thoughts about WV's environment. It is nothing but paranoia. I hate to touch on a dreaded topic, but I am (perhaps generously) attributing this thinking to "emotionalism". There is another word out there that could be used to describes making such links about things such as "punk behavior" to a schools environment.
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Post by 3woodgal on May 20, 2008 11:25:35 GMT -5
I am NOT disparaging WV, just pointing out that a list of schools that would include WV but not NV, NN, or NC is suspect. This is exactly right, IMHO. For all the love we give Naperville schools, I believe the background of the student and his upbringing largely determine the results and the perceived quality of the school. I think the fact that most kids in 203 and 204 are from two-parent, above average socioeconomic homes means more than the quality of the teachers (and the cosmetics of the school buildings), despite what the teacher unions would have you believe. Studies have been done to actually back up your statement so that is not debatable. But I am confused about what your point is on this one?
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Post by 3woodgal on May 20, 2008 11:28:37 GMT -5
For all the love we give Naperville schools, I believe the background of the student and his upbringing largely determine the results and the perceived quality of the school. I think the fact that most kids in 203 and 204 are from two-parent, above average socioeconomic homes means more than the quality of the teachers (and the cosmetics of the school buildings), despite what the teacher unions would have you believe. And this is why it's wrong to punish schools in lower socio-economic areas with NCLB. No matter how strong the teachers, programs, and administration are in those districts, they can't overcome what goes on with the students at home. I continue to believe that the offerings of 204 are excellent while at the same time agreeing that our test scores are not necessarily a good indicator of that (because if they were, our two high schools would have nearly identical scores). Not always true. Anyone remember the true movie called Lean on Me with Morgan Freeman (he played a principal named Joe). He did turn those kids around in conjunction with faculty. It is more difficult but doable. Time has to be spent determining what tools to use on these students. Let's not use the excuse of the parents.
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Post by 3woodgal on May 20, 2008 11:30:50 GMT -5
This is the primary force driving those who prefer NV to WV. You can talk about identical curricula and "opportunities" all day, but most people know there is still a difference. Look at the Chicago Public Schools as an example. In theory, they should all have the same academic offerings and the same money spent per child. Yet some schools are mired in gang problems, guns, and a host of other distractions that negatively affect the learning experience. Certainly WV is nowhere near this situation. Yet I know people who work at Still MS who claim that the level of disrespect shown (by students) to teachers and aides is becoming increasingly alarming, and there isn't much being done about it. At some point, this apathy will make its way to the HS level as the kids move to higher grades. Many of us don't want our kids subjected to this type of atmosphere. Diversity is one thing; disobedience and punk behavior is another. Diversity is okay as long as you get to pick it huh? My daughter attends Still MS. Sorry, not an issue. She is getting the same outstanding education offered elsewhere. I guess you have to live it to get it. In our society don't we all pick the community we live in? Our children spend more time in school then at home (not including sleep time). Why frown on those that opt for a certain environment for their children? I have spoken to so many MINORITY families that would agree thta you do pick it!
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Post by 3woodgal on May 20, 2008 11:33:58 GMT -5
I have not spent much time at NV but I will say that in my experience and those of my children, that WV does have a respectful atmosphere and the majority of the students they know want to and do excel academically and usually while participating in multiple extra-curriculars as well. The difference between NV and WV's overall socioeconomic background is small compared to the difference between either of them and many other schools. It is just enough to give the school some more diversity and give all of the students more chance to get to know some people who may not be just like them. I know several kids who are Illinois State Scholars and/or Indian Prairie Scholars who come from the very neighborhoods that some do not want their children to attend school with. Back on topic - I think it's great that WV is being recognized, by one measure, for being among the top high schools in the nation. I hate to burst the bubble of those with kids not yet in high school -- NV has just as many problems with sex, drugs and alcohol use as does WV! How much money your family has is not an indicator of attitude and bad behavior. Why do we keep going around and around on the NV vs WV topic? Those that like each school are entitled to and will maintain his/her opinion. No point in beating a dead horse or trying to lobby/convince one another. How long are we going to continue to do this....myself included. Move on!
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Post by warriorpride on May 20, 2008 12:01:17 GMT -5
I hate to burst the bubble of those with kids not yet in high school -- NV has just as many problems with sex, drugs and alcohol use as does WV! How much money your family has is not an indicator of attitude and bad behavior. Why do we keep going around and around on the NV vs WV topic? Those that like each school are entitled to and will maintain his/her opinion. No point in beating a dead horse or trying to lobby/convince one another. How long are we going to continue to do this....myself included. Move on! I have an idea: when a 204 school gets acclaimed for something, how about if nobody tries to shoot it down or reduce the significance of it? Just a thought
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Post by JWH on May 20, 2008 12:18:59 GMT -5
I totally agree with you on that. I have seen cases where teacher/mentor intervention has circumvented a "bad parenting" situation, and the child really thrives. But, good parenting is where it all starts. Kudos to WV regardless of the merits of the metric.
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Post by momto4 on May 20, 2008 12:30:47 GMT -5
Really? Because the holy trinity of Naperville schools didn't make it? I do not mean to slam those schools, as I said before, Neuqua and Waubonsie are equal in academic offerings and opportunities. The list has its own way of ranking schools. Waubonsie did well, good for Waubonsie, it would be nice if you found something nice to say. Using the ACT scores from the junior class is also a bogus way of ranking schools but we do it all the time, you know that pesky academic achievement gap. The difference between WV and NV is several dozen students or less scoring poorly. Should that be a problem? It is to some. As I said before it is nice to see something positive about WV in print in regards to rankings. I am not a WV fan but c',mon Asmodeus, it is good to see things could be changing. As for NV and WV being equal, this is not true when it comes to college admissions and the weight of each school when calculating composite score in determining who gets admitted. What sort of things go into these rankings and how do they affect admissions? I really have a hard time imagining that a college recruiter would look differently at a top 5% of WV grad vs. top 5% of NV with similar classes and grades.
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Post by 3woodgal on May 20, 2008 12:37:54 GMT -5
Why do we keep going around and around on the NV vs WV topic? Those that like each school are entitled to and will maintain his/her opinion. No point in beating a dead horse or trying to lobby/convince one another. How long are we going to continue to do this....myself included. Move on! I have an idea: when a 204 school gets acclaimed for something, how about if nobody tries to shoot it down or reduce the significance of it? Just a thought I agree but if someone does then you or I can't change that...so no point in going around and around.
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Post by 3woodgal on May 20, 2008 12:41:14 GMT -5
As I said before it is nice to see something positive about WV in print in regards to rankings. I am not a WV fan but c',mon Asmodeus, it is good to see things could be changing. As for NV and WV being equal, this is not true when it comes to college admissions and the weight of each school when calculating composite score in determining who gets admitted. What sort of things go into these rankings and how do they affect admissions? I really have a hard time imagining that a college recruiter would look differently at a top 5% of WV grad vs. top 5% of NV with similar classes and grades. Take the time as I have done and speak with a college admissions officer....not the recruiters. Many schools take the application and perspective students are awarded points for categories. Often your GPA is multiplied by a number (based on the high school) which will give you a new number to be used ib your total points being used to determine admission. I am not saying that the WV number is bad vs the NV number....but for the 2 schools I spoke to the NV, NC and NN numbers are higher than WV.
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Post by asmodeus on May 20, 2008 12:49:28 GMT -5
Why do we keep going around and around on the NV vs WV topic? Those that like each school are entitled to and will maintain his/her opinion. No point in beating a dead horse or trying to lobby/convince one another. How long are we going to continue to do this....myself included. Move on! I have an idea: when a 204 school gets acclaimed for something, how about if nobody tries to shoot it down or reduce the significance of it? Just a thought If a publication came out and said that Naperville was one of the most affluent Chicagoland suburbs, but Hinsdale, Glencoe, and Kenilworth were not on the list, one would question why. The skepticism wouldn't be a reflection on Naperville, but rather on why the others were excluded. Same thing here.
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